MSU Federal Credit Union (MSUFCU) is quickly growing. April Clobes, President and CEO of MSU Federal Credit Union, sat down with me to talk about how she climbed the corporate ladder to become the CEO but also how this credit union, which started in a desk drawer over 50 years ago now has hundreds of thousands of members and manages $7.5 Billion in assets.
Links:
MSU Federal Credit Union Website: https://www.msufcu.org/
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Transcript
I didn't set out to be the CEO. in 2010, our then CEO, who was five years from his retirement, had an arrangement with the board that no one knew, to prepare internal candidates for his succession. I didn't really understand I was on this journey to be considered to be the CEO. then he had a real conversation with me of Oh, now we're like less than two years away before I'm going to make an announcement. So it's now you.
Cliff Duvernois:Hello, everyone, and welcome to Total Michigan, where we interview ordinary Michiganders doing some pretty extraordinary things. I'm your host, Cliff Duvernois. Today I'm in Lansing, Michigan. And I get the unique privilege and honor to talk to somebody who's really accomplished quite a bit It's really an incredible story. Ladies and gentlemen, let me present to you the president and CEO of MSU Federal Credit Union, and that would be April Clobes. April, how are you?
April Clobes, MSUFCU:I'm doing great. Thanks for having me.
Cliff Duvernois:Awesome. Why don't you tell us a little bit about where you're from and where you grew up.
April Clobes, MSUFCU:Oh absolutely. So I am from Bay City, Michigan. And I did grow up most of my life in Michigan. I did spend tell us a little you know, maybe five to six years living in other states with my family before we returned to Michigan. But graduated high school from Bangor John Glenn.
Cliff Duvernois:go to college? I went
April Clobes, MSUFCU:I went to Michigan State University.
Cliff Duvernois:What did you study?
April Clobes, MSUFCU:I studied marketing, in the College of Business. It was probably like my third or fourth major choice, but that's where I finished.
Cliff Duvernois:Why did you decided to get into marketing?
April Clobes, MSUFCU:Well, I had come to school to be pre law, in all honesty. And I had, spent a lot of time preparing for a career as an attorney. And when I started doing, some of the school work. I just started working through like, I'm not sure this is what I want to do. Mostly I started, I had a class assignment where you had to interview attorneys. And I had to interview different types of practicing attorneys. So I interviewed a prosecutor, I interviewed a defense attorney, corporate lawyer. And I was like, I don't know that this sounds like fast paced and interesting enough, right? And and so then I started exploring majors. And, I was already taking some business courses and really took a marketing class. And it just, it felt right. And so I finished out in marketing and it's actually where I spent most of my career before this job, Yeah.
Cliff Duvernois:Speaking of which, after you graduated from college, where did you land your first job?
April Clobes, MSUFCU:job? My first job was with Monroe Auto, which is an automotive supplier located right here in Michigan. Except I was, assigned the Chicagoland area as my territory, doing corporate sales. I showed the corporate clients, which were Kmart and TrackAuto.
Cliff Duvernois:I Oh. Very nice.
April Clobes, MSUFCU:Yeah, it did not last long.
Cliff Duvernois:have to be, That wasn't your cup of tea.
April Clobes, MSUFCU:Yeah, I think you have to be, have the perspective of 1994, which is a long time ago now. And the work environment and, being, at the time, probably one of very few females in the role, in just the industry expectations and, it, it was not a work environment where I could thrive.
Cliff Duvernois:so how did you start to put your foot into banking finance
April Clobes, MSUFCU:Yeah. well, this was everyone, oh, this is not my, like, sat around and had a good dream job. It was, for me, I had a marketing background. And so after I left Monroe Auto, I actually went to a company in the metro Detroit area called Lighting Supply. And they were a commercial lighting distributor. And I did their marketing. What that meant was I did catalogs of light bulbs and trade shows for the facilities team at your corporate office, right? And the light bulbs that they might need to buy, and really handled the marketing for this company. company. And so I really enjoy marketing. I was in the metro Detroit area. And wanted to come back to the Lansing region. My now husband was here. He was working at Michigan State. So I just started looking for jobs to be honest with you in the old fashioned way of a newspaper back in the day. And, I was a member of the credit union from my time at Michigan State. There was a marketing job open and I had been, while working at Michigan State University as a student, I had been a marketing intern in the union building. And the credit union had an office location, for a branch in the union. And I often had to call the vice president of marketing at the credit union for things, right? Will you put an ad in this student event program? Will you sponsor this? Can you give us trinkets? And when the, when I saw the ad, I was, had a memory of Oh, I remember this experience. And the woman that I worked with at the credit union. So I applied. Turns out she remembered me from my time at MSU as well. And then I was hired in as marketing specialist in 1996.
Cliff Duvernois:1996. When you graduated college and you entered the workforce, Okay, you newly minted college graduate. Did anybody give you any advice? As far as, starting your career, anything else?
April Clobes, MSUFCU:No. We were talking a little bit as we were getting ready, right? I'm a first generation college student, in my family. And so I have working class parents. And my mom actually grew up on a farm in Michigan. And so navigating college and then after college, what I knew was I had worked and put myself through college. And I needed a job after college. And when In the time that I graduated and I had a marketing degree, your job options were really to be a salesperson for some company. And so I went through rounds and rounds of interviews, and landed with Monroe Auto. And that's why I said it just wasn't the place for me, right? I didn't go to do sales. I did... Wanted to do marketing. I wanted to do like the traditional marketing, right? I wanted to promote products and services to customers in our case members. and so to me It was I had to work my way back to doing what I considered the marketing experience. so then I ended up here. So it wasn't about Banking or finance. It was about doing marketing.
Cliff Duvernois:So you were saying before about being a first generation college graduate in your family. Your parents must of been very proud.
April Clobes, MSUFCU:Yeah. my mom is very proud of me. We talk about it a lot. I give my mom all the credit for how I got to my journey. And how I was able to be successful. And my dad left, when I was 10. And so my mom was single mom to myself and my brother for, since I've been 10. And, She really had a lot of expectations. Because she didn't want me to experience what she had experienced, right? She didn't have a chance to attend college. She, didn't have the maybe income potential as a single parent, that is afforded people who went to college. And so it was a very big emphasis in our household of study, get good grades, work really hard, go to college and you'll be able to support yourself. And I tell that story all the time. And my mom is like, ah, and I'm like, mom, I am where I am because of who you are.
Cliff Duvernois:Indeed.
April Clobes, MSUFCU:Yeah.
Cliff Duvernois:Beautiful. So you've got hired in at the credit union as a marketing specialist.
April Clobes, MSUFCU:a marketing specialist.
Cliff Duvernois:So talk to us a little bit about navigating the corporate ladder. How did you start to, start to really make a name for yourself and climb those rungs?
April Clobes, MSUFCU:Sure. So you have to be in perspective. I know people maybe know what our organization looks like today. 1996, 27 years ago, we had a hundred employees at the credit union. We were 400 million asset institution, very MSU local into Lansing. So it was really easy to do extra work, is what I always tell everyone. So I started in marketing. I'm actually old enough that we did not have internet capable programs at the credit union. And when my predecessor in the CEO position became the CEO of the credit union, he had a big focus on we needed to be online. And we needed to be able to promote our products and services online. We needed to be able to serve members online. And we had nothing online. And so when he became the CEO in the year 2000, it became a big... effort and initiative for the credit union to become, wired online. The true story is, he came and said, Hey, we need a website. And I'm the one, marketing employee reporting to the vice president of marketing. And we may have had an intern or a second, person that was, we always had felt like one employee and a half. and so I raised my hand because it was like, I'm sure that's going to require that I have to work extra. Because I will need to do my day to day already job. And then we're going to do this website, and I might make overtime, right? And having put myself through college, that seemed really appealing, that I could, make a little extra cash, be able to, maybe buy some fun clothes and shoes, which was my passion. And pay off my student loan. So it sounded like a great idea. So I literally taught myself how to code a website, and... HTML for dummies was a great book when that came out.
Cliff Duvernois:Hey, I had it. So I'm right there with you
April Clobes, MSUFCU:and it journeyed from there to be honest. And so I spent, really from about 2001 to 2009, taking our analog operations and making them digital. And I think some, I spoke to new hires this morning. And they asked a question about my journey. And no, I didn't set out to be the CEO. But what I think happened in that path is a few things. One, I really, intricately knew how the organization operated. We took every process and put it online for the member, right? So if you had walked in the door to do a transfer in your account, I had to figure out how that worked, right? And how are we going to put it in a program that now is a home banking program. If you wanted to apply for something online, what were the fields that we needed? And when that button hit submit, what type of output file and how did we get it into the core software to actually open an account for you? and what documentation was needed from the members? They came in all of those parts. You learned how the data and the information and the process flowed. And you also learned all about the service to the member and the expectation and how to deliver that. So I had this unique set of skills that, I, probably can't be replicated unfortunately today to find out how things worked in a new way. And so I got to do that for a long time. And I went from, a manager and to an AVP to a vp, until 2009. And in 2009, my first boss here at the credit union, the VP of marketing, retired. Then I had the opportunity to also, work with our marketing team. in 2010, our then CEO, who was five years from his retirement, had an arrangement with the board that no one knew, to prepare internal candidates for his succession. And myself and another individual were those candidates and and I tease him about it, so we have, and I still see him, and he lives in town, and we joke about it, I really thought, and now I'm sure people can think this about me, he was getting to be a certain age. We were getting much bigger at this point. We were over a billion dollars in assets. Approaching two. we just started thinking well he he needs help right? Like it's getting bigger. So and probably he's getting older and all those things that as a young person you may assess without the life experience. And so really what happened is the organization leadership was divided amongst the two of us to, learn other operational areas of the credit union. And we did that for a little bit. And then another organization, had a CEO position open. And my counterpart applied for and received that position. I didn't really understand I was on this journey to be considered to be the CEO. But after she left, then he had a real conversation with me of Oh, now we're like less than two years away before I'm going to make an announcement. And three years before I leave. And there's not enough time to start preparing other people. So it's now you. And so then I was like, that's what we're doing? I wasn't prepared for that. Most people are surprised to hear this, but I'm an introvert by nature. Being the CEO is a very extroverted job. And my boss, he was very extroverted. And so I was like, I can't do that. And then we spent, the next two years, and I learned other areas of the organization, board operations, and working with our Board of Directors and all those great things. I tell everybody that every day is your job interview. Because I felt like that my career path gave me the opportunity. The Board knew me from early years when I'm presenting. This is a website at the Board meeting. Because no one knew what a website was or how it worked except for me. I made it. and so you had some experiences that made me uniquely positioned for the role. and for people to know me along my journey as we were making and creating new things. Then the board, of course, put me in the role. I wouldn't be here with you right now.
Cliff Duvernois:We got a lot to unpack.
April Clobes, MSUFCU:I try to tell that in a succinct way because it's really like this weird journey, right?
Cliff Duvernois:No, but it's your journey and I love it and we definitely need to unpack a couple of things. But for our audience, we're gonna take a quick break to thank our sponsors and when we come back I'm gonna pepper April with all kinds of questions. We'll see you after the break. Are you enjoying these amazing stories? Michigan is full of people that are doing some pretty extraordinary things. If you want these amazing stories sent directly to your inbox, head over to total michigan.com. Enter your email address and get them today. What are you going to get? I'm glad you asked. First, you're gonna join our awesome Michigan community Second, you will get an email that includes the top five interviews from the show sent directly to your inbox. Third, you're gonna get exclusive behind the scenes information about the show. There's a lot of things that are happening to grow this movement beyond the confines of just a radio show and a podcast. You'll get advanced notice of upcoming guests and early access to their interviews. Now to get all these goodies, just head over to total michigan.com/join. Enter your email address and join our awesome community today. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Total Michigan, where we interview ordinary Michiganders doing some pretty extraordinary things. I'm your host, Cliff DuVernois. Today, we're talking with April Clobes, president and CEO of the Michigan State University Federal Credit Union. Might as well put it all out there for everybody. April, before the break, going back when you first joined the credit union. This was internets in its infancy. Not a lot of people are online. If they are they're probably in chat rooms using aOL dial up or whatever what I would like to do is I to explore the journey of bringing the credit union online. Because that for a lot of people is a huge like culture shift. Like we were so used to doing everything via paper and, members have got to come in and if you start to do it online, the credit union is going to fail or whatever. And I know you probably had some people that may have give some resistance. So talk to us about. That, that literally like the culture shift going on, going from a pure paper world to online.
April Clobes, MSUFCU:As I was sitting here trying to reflect on that, today I could see what might happen with the employees and the members, right? At the time that I was tasked with this, I was probably young and totally oblivious in all honesty, right? I'm a people pleaser by nature. My boss gave me a job. And I was going to achieve it, right? and so I, I don't remember like all the resistance to online. But I do remember that, there was a lot of me explaining and talking about what we're doing. And I think that's probably, I have a marketing background, so I probably just looked at, oh, we have a new product, we have a new whatever, I need to tell everybody what it is. And so we did a lot of employee meetings and said, oh, we're going to have this website. And here's how you're going to use it. And here's what's on it. And I'm going to come and sit in your department, and you're going to help me. Because that was also it. I knew our products. But I didn't know how to journey them to the fine detail when a member would call and ask, how do I apply? I knew we had auto loans. I knew the rates. I knew you could apply and come into the branch, right? But then I didn't know what happened. And so I did a lot of time shadowing lots of employees and sitting with them, watching what they were doing. And then trying to, for me and my marketing mind, right? Draw it on a piece of paper and make it look like a web form and figure out if they push submit here. Now what's going to happen behind that form? And where does it go and touching our core software? and so I think because again, we were still a smaller organization with just around 100 employees. People knew what I was working on, right? And I knew I was coming and going to learn from them. And I think the fact that people were helping me figure all those processes out really meant we were all in it. I do remember getting an opportunity to present to our board at the, in the earlier years. And it was when we were beyond the first website. But we started having conversations, you, talking about AOL and all of that, right? And but explaining we're gonna, we need email addresses. And, that members are going to email us and ask questions. And we needed to be able to serve people via an email exchange versus a phone call. I remember one of our board members, who was a great human, but at the point was retired. And he retired before, there was email in the office, right? And I remember being in a board meeting explaining, I remember the hand going up and going. Who's going to email us? And what would they write? And just like being confused that what do you mean you don't understand what they might email us. Cause I was living this world of we understood people would email you anything just like they would call and ask you anything. But really then realizing I needed to unpack that information for different audiences at the organization, was probably a great learning opportunity, for the rest of my experience of everyone is at a different point in their journey with everything. And so how do we make sure we're touching everyone with what the information they need at the time they need it, internal and external? And so then we went on a bigger journey of let's talk about how we're going to use this platform? What for? How will the members use it? And then once it's going live, come back and talk about here's what people are doing. Here's the data. I mean I could probably still this day. But I could at any point you could ask me how many people applied for their account online versus in person And I could tell you that number. How many people did a transaction themselves right on the home banking versus in the branch and so forth. Because you needed to be able to show the value of the work that you were doing. if we were doing it correctly and the members were responding. So it, you became versed in things differently than you used to before.
Cliff Duvernois:I love how you evangelized the website and understanding who your audience is to be able to explain it to not only employees, but also going up the ladder as well. Like you were talking about explaining it to the board.
April Clobes, MSUFCU:Yeah, that's the nice part of a small organization. And at the time when you were the one leader that knew the technology online, you then it was like, Hey, you have to come and present to the board. And that's why I said I had some very unique everyday job opportunities by I don't know today that an employee who is working on a project would be invited to a board meeting to explain it anymore. And because now their leader knows it, their leader's leader knows it, all of those things because of our scope and size. But we were a flat organization. And so you had a chance to demonstrate your work and abilities not only to your direct manager, but to many people.
Cliff Duvernois:historical context, because you've mentioned a couple times that when you first started working here at the credit union, there was 100 employees. So what I would like to do is, I'd to explore like a little bit about the history. Like when was the credit union founded? When you joined it, like where was it at that point in time?
April Clobes, MSUFCU:We were founded in 1937. yeah, three years after the Federal Credit Union Act was signed, which is 1934. our organization, there are people who may not understand credit unions. I'll try to do that real brief. So, a credit union comes out of the Federal Credit Union Act, which was to have a banking alternative for people of modest means. We also are chartered to be, from the federal charter, or a state charter. So our organization is out of a federal charter, means the federal government, examines us versus the state government examines us. What that also means is how you're chartered is you can be chartered to serve communities, you can be chartered to serve employers. And we were chartered to serve an employer, Michigan State University. So the faculty, staff, we had to come together and form the credit union. And the credit union nature is our board of directors are all volunteer. And so for the first 20 years of the credit union's existence, the board of directors were the management of the credit union volunteers. And they ran the credit union for 20 years for the employees of Michigan State University. And I tease today when I go talk to students, right? We all are used to go fund me and all of those types of campaigns, right? But in 1937, if you wanted to borrow, I think we had a maximum limit for $100 loan. The board would call maybe 10 other Members that were in place. Could you bring in $10 on deposit so we can lend it over here? then the board approved your loan and the board knew who you were. And they knew where you worked. And the other people over here knew who you were. That, brought in the money on deposit. But that's really the nature of what a credit union is. The members bring money in deposit, we lend it to the members that need it. so we operated like that for 20 years. In 1957, the board of directors hired their first employee, and her name was Frances Liz Neskey. I really always stop and pause. 1957, first employee manager of the credit union is a female. Fran was the leader of the credit union for 30 years. She was employee number one, and then she leaves in the, in 1987. So we're probably at 60 employees or something at that point. But we had an office on a Kwanzaa Hunt and MSU's campus at that point until we moved and grew at that point. Fran is our virtual assistant now. And so that's, we named our virtual assistant, our AI chat bot after Fran because, is you gotta have a great story for your AI assistant. And so today the credit union is, When I started, we were 400 million in assets. When I became the CEO, we were 2. 5 billion in assets eight years ago. And we're just, about 7. 7 billion in assets today. We have a little over 1, 100 employees. We are a statewide organization. We have 23 branches throughout the state of Michigan, not just local in Lansing any longer.
Cliff Duvernois:That's an incredible growth spurt. When you started, there was a hundred. Now you're at 1100. That's like a levity gabillion percent increase. That is huge
April Clobes, MSUFCU:You can feel that some days, right? Yeah. I meet with new hires every month and I literally am like, I want to know your name. But I do want to also explain there's one of me that you will know who I am, of course. And there are eleven hundred employees and I'm trying really hard to know all of you. But you have to help me, right? I may not remember. The first moment I see you, your name or where you are placed in the organization.
Cliff Duvernois:let's take a couple of minutes to discuss that, because I'm a real big believer in the fact that culture does flow downhill. So let's talk about you because there's a two year transition, right? And I want to make sure that I emphasize that because a lot of people think, CEO just, says, I'm going to retire and get somebody else in here. But there was a two year period. You step into the role of CEO. And talk to us about your views on culture, employee relations.
April Clobes, MSUFCU:My predecessor had a great foundation for the organization and we've always been, if we treat employees well, have great programs, benefits, competitive pay for employees, they will actually want to come work here. And if you want to come work here and you enjoy the work that you're doing, then you may be happier. And when you're happier, you have a better interaction with our members and Then they are happier, and then they want to do more business with us, then we have the financial ability to continue that cycle. Now, it sounds so easy. But it does take a lot of work and time. We've made changes, of course, as I've been in the role. we've strengthened a lot of practices. we have, a very robust DEIMB program. Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Belonging. what that means though, is in the workplace, we relax dress code, right? So when I first started working here, women had to wear nylons, right? And, you couldn't have hair in any color you wanted, it had to be like natural hair. You couldn't have visible tattoos or piercings, and all the very, what I would call traditional banking, dress code. and one of the first things that somebody asked me when I began, can, why can't I have purple hair? And I just looked at the person and I was like, I don't know why you can't have purple hair, right? If you want purple hair, go for it. and so really breaking down the workplace, so people, no matter who you are, feel you can come here and be yourself. And that takes away just one more level of work anxiety that give you time to focus on the great work that you can be a part of in our organization. And so we really work at cultivating that. My life goal is that when you wake up in the morning, you're not dreading coming to work at the credit union. And because I've had jobs like that, I've had times, maybe, with some folks that I might have worked here at the credit union with. And it's for me, it's always do you like the mission of the work that we are doing in addition to the culture that we have for you as an employee. And they both have to align for who you are as a person. And when you can do that, then I think great things happen and that's what I think we see in our organization every day. To give
Cliff Duvernois:in addition to going from 100 to 1, 100 employees, how many branches have you grown to now?
April Clobes, MSUFCU:so we have 23 today open and operating. We have seven in progress. and those, two of those are here in Michigan and five are in the downtown city of Chicago. And, we also have announced, two community bank acquisitions that will provide five additional branches in the suburbs of Chicago. By the end of 2024, we will have an additional 12 branches, so 35 by the end of next year.
Cliff Duvernois:That's incredible. How many customers are you
April Clobes, MSUFCU:Yeah. So in our industry, they're members
Cliff Duvernois:Members, yes.
April Clobes, MSUFCU:I just, I can't say customer I have. that would just feel really awkward. And so for us as members, and so today we have 355, 000 members. and they are nationwide and worldwide. so about 30 percent of our membership lives out of the state of Michigan, right? yeah.
Cliff Duvernois:That is incredible.
April Clobes, MSUFCU:We have lots of elligible members. I always like That to remind people that. We're chartered to serve all things Michigan State University and Oakland University. Actually, today I'm wearing my Oakland University colors as I visited their campus earlier today. But, Michigan State alone has 500, 000 living alumni. Oakland University is, slightly shy of, 100, 000. And so you put that together, right? If everyone who could take advantage of having their business, their financial business with the credit union, we could be even larger. hmm. Mm hmm.
Cliff Duvernois:That is That is wonderful And I want to go back because you mentioned something earlier about being for the Michigan State employees. But now we're talk about students and alumni as Is it literally anybody associated with MSU? And
April Clobes, MSUFCU:It's as anybody associated who would like to have an account with us, we can open an account for anyone today. So we were originally chartered for the employees of the university. Over time, you work with your regulator and you move through a process to add other constituent groups to your field of membership. And our world is called field of membership. So we expanded to include students, alumni, not just the faculty and staff. And then, Oakland university in the fifties, was MSU Oakland. And so when they became their own independent university of Oakland university, they were in our field of membership still. And so we actually serve Oakland university as Oakland University Credit Union. So we run. O U C U in the Oakland, campus area. then also we, because of our charter, credit unions have very unique ways to be chartered, and we're in charter as a select employer group base, so that's what MSU was. They were our selected employer. But as that, you can add incremental s employers. and so we have added, One by one, a lot of employers. McLaren, Greater Lansing Hospital. so though, they, there is a regulatory process for approval. The state of Michigan, employees. So lots of employers have, gone through the process to be approved by our regulatory body that the, we will serve them as a credit union as well. And then we also run a foundation that's called the Desk Door Fund. Because we started at a desk drawer on MSU's campus for those first 20 years. if you are a donor to the desk drawer fund, you are also eligible to open an account at the credit union. So if there is a process where maybe you've exhausted all possible connectivity, then you, we can, accept your gift, to our scholarship fund and then you're a donor to the foundation. And then you become a member as well.
Cliff Duvernois:One final question I got. as you're the CEO, why don't you share with us the vision of MSU Federal Credit Union?
April Clobes, MSUFCU:The vision of the organization is to provide superior service with human service and technology working together to provide financial access to all. And when you break that down, really what we're experiencing today is there's always a digital journey to be had. There's always an in person or on the phone. But a human person journey that your business needs to have. And they need to know how to work well together. There are people in our society that only want to do self service and digital. And there are people who only want human help service. And then there are people who fall in the middle and you have to be able to hand that off back and forth in a seamless way. And then I think the pandemic era taught us that the ability to serve the volume that we are at today. We will never be able to hire enough people right now to do only human service. So we have to have ways that technology and digital are always working together. So that's in our vision statement because it provides the direction for projects. It provides the path for what's the focus of our organization. Branching is the focus for us. That's a human service capacity. But when you walk in, there's a digital component to it. You check yourself in, just like at the Secretary of State now, right? I do, I can do an online appointment. I have the ability to maybe manage my time in the branch differently because we have digital systems to help you with that. So everybody's working seamlessly together.
Cliff Duvernois:April, if somebody's listening to this interview and they want to check out more about what MSU Federal Credit Union is about, what's the best way for them to do that?
April Clobes, MSUFCU:Well our website is www. msufcu. org. You can certainly type my name in LinkedIn. And I'm sure you'll see lots of things about us online.
Cliff Duvernois:April, thank you so much for taking time out of your very busy schedule to chat with us today. I really do appreciate it.
April Clobes, MSUFCU:Thank you. It's been a lot of fun.
Cliff Duvernois:For our audience, you can always roll on over to TotalMichigan. com, click on April's interview. And, get the links that she mentioned earlier. We'll see you next week when we talk to another Michigander doing some pretty extraordinary things. We'll see you then.
