Climbing the Financial Capital of the World with John Tuttle

John Tuttle: 00:00:00

I say there are four buildings that define America, the White House, the Capitol, the Supreme Court, and the New York Stock Exchange. So whether it's their own savings for again, their children's education, their retirement, their financial freedom, or the pension fund, it for teachers, for firefighters, for, auto workers, those pension funds are invested in the market. So how the market performs the competitiveness of the U S capital markets really, touches their lives directly every day and can help for the long term competitiveness of the country.

Cliff Duvernois: 00:00:29

Hello everyone, and welcome back to Total Michigan, where we interview ordinary Michiganders who are doing some pretty extraordinary things. I am your host, Cliff Duvenois. Today we got a very unique guest. And if you went and you listened to my interview with the CEO of Biggby Coffee, Mike McFall, he reached out to me after our interview and said, Hey, I've got the perfect guest for your show. And, I couldn't believe it when I saw it, but I was like, I got to talk to him. And he's gracious enough to give us some time today. So ladies and gentlemen. Today we're talking with John Tuttle, Vice Chairman of the New York Stock Exchange, and the president of the N Y S E Institute. John, how are you?

John Tuttle: 00:01:08

It's great to be with you and we do share a mutual friend in Mike McFall Who is an extraordinary Michigander and a dear friend of mine now.

Cliff Duvernois: 00:01:16

Yes, I absolutely loved his interview so if you hadn't had an opportunity go and make sure to check him out. So John let's talk about you. We're gonna make this all about you. So why don't you tell us where are you from? Where did you grow up?

John Tuttle: 00:01:29

Yeah, sure, absolutely. So I'm a proud seventh generation Michigander. My father grew up in Walled Lake, my mother grew up in Detroit. I am from Milford, born and raised, very proud that my folks still reside in the house I came home from the hospital to. My wife is from Milford as well, so I have deep roots to the state, to, to Oakland County as well. So, so grew up there, went to school in southeast Michigan, went off to, go school to Eastern Michigan and then a couple other places after that. and stumbled my way to New York City. But never lost my love or my ties to Michigan.

Cliff Duvernois: 00:01:57

Boy, I tell you, once Michigan gets in your blood, it just never leaves.

John Tuttle: 00:02:00

it's pumping through it as we speak.

Cliff Duvernois: 00:02:03

It's pumping through as we speak. You will, and I know as somebody who's spent like a couple decades outside of the state, Michigan always comes back. So what did you study when you were at Eastern?

John Tuttle: 00:02:09

So I did grow up in, in, in Milford. I went off to Eastern Michigan. I went there to go play football and I have to just tell you a little bit of context there because it was cause of some frustration within my, my, my family because I was born, raised and indoctrinated a University of Michigan fan. But my father, who's a very proud alum, has had the same season tickets at the big house for a half a century and wanted his son to, to go off to the University of Michigan. So I went off to Eastern Michigan to play football. That was strike one. Strike two was then I went on to Notre Dame for graduate school. I guess where strike three was I married a Michigan State Spartan. So I didn't do anything south of the border, but, and make my way to Columbus. I, I certainly position myself as the black sheep of the family. But I did go off to Eastern Michigan. I went there to play football and, and after a season ended up getting injured, not playing football, playing basketball in a friend's driveway at that time. And then realizing that there probably was more to life than me pretending that there was a career for me in football. So I, I explored some different avenues, different paths, which led me to where I am today.

Cliff Duvernois: 00:03:08

So let's talk a little bit about that because it's a little bit of a stretch to go from playing football to, basically, almost like one of the top positions for the stock exchange. So I guess taking a step back here for a second. what, how did that path go? Like when you decided, maybe football isn't a career for me. What was that next path that you took?

John Tuttle: 00:03:30

Sure. It's not that interesting. But I'll give you the story. So I ended up breaking my ankle in a friend's driveway playing basketball. And I was sitting there, I thought, what am I going to do? And I'd always been interested in current events, public policy and And I thought, you know what, I'm going, now I have a little bit more bandwidth. I'm not playing football. I'm not, not having to do all the things that go along with that. But maybe I'll apply for an internship with my congressman. And so I was not from a politically connected family. I was, not tied into any political party at the time. And so I went online, which was still, believe it or not, a relatively new concept at that time that you could go online and find information. But I went online and I found out what I needed to do to get an internship for my local congressman. Or I should say apply for an internship with my local congressman. I needed three things. I needed to, draft an essay, I needed to send my resume, and get three letters of recommendation. I thought, all right, easy enough. I'll do that. So I went off and got that together. And at the same time, I thought, you know what? Again, I'm not from some donor family or anything like that. Why don't I see what the requirements are for a White House one? And I was like 19 years old at the time. And, It was immediately after 9 11, they had cut the program down from, I don't know, several dozen people to probably about a dozen folks. And lo and behold, it was the same requirements. It was, send an essay, send your resume, and send three letters of recommendation. I thought, all right, I can double dip here and, fast forward, I never heard back from my congressman. I ended up getting the best spot in the White House. And fortunately, to this date, at least it's been the only job I've ever had to apply for in my life. So the rest is a lot of luck after that. I ended up at the White House, shortly after President Bush. Bush, became president shortly after 9 11 as well, got to know some wonderful people. Ended up going back to Michigan and finishing school as fast as I possibly could. And the day I graduated, I got a call saying, can you come down and, return to Washington DC. But this time, we want you to work in Secretary Rice's office. And Condoleezza Rice was just nominated and confirmed to be the president's Secretary of State. And I thought, sure. So my first day at the State Department was her first day at the state department. And just as an aside. Again, politics aside. She is truly one of the most wonderful Americans and people I've ever come across. And, 20 years later when she's in lower Manhattan or we're in the same town, I may be in Palo Alto where she is still has a senior role at Stanford. She'll reach out or I'll reach out and we'll get together for coffee. And again, better part of a quarter century later, we're still close. I was in my twenties. And, she was gracious enough to give me the time and an opportunity. And so from there, I spent a number of years and I got to travel to Palo Alto. All kinds of amazing places around the world. I, everything from, being part of the president's delegation to the Winter Olympics to going to rebel leaders funerals in southern Sudan to being in the tribal regions of Pakistan to Kosovo and everywhere in between. Yeah. the monetary compensation wasn't very high. but the compensation and kind of life experience was just unmatched. So it was an incredible life experience. And, for some reason, I've always been in a hurry, just to I don't know where the destination is, and, I figured I want to go to graduate school. So I wanted to find a business school program that would allow me to crank out an NBA in the shortest amount of time possible. I don't know if it's a wiser strategy, but it's the one I pursued at the time. So I convinced the University of Notre Dame to let me in there and to complete was traditionally a two year program in about 11 months. And so I cranked that out. Yeah, and, yeah. And when I graduated, I thought I was either going to go down to Washington, D. C. and get back involved in, maybe the Treasury Department or something like that. Or go off to law school. I had applied and gotten into a number of places, and so that was part of the plan as well. And I ended up getting a call from somebody, who had worked for the president for six years as governor, five years as President, who had left the administration to go up to the New York Stock Exchange. And he is somebody I had worked with the State Department and a great friend to this day. And he says, John, I need you to come to New York. I said, I have no interest in moving to new York City. He says, here's the trade. You do it for six months. If you hate it, I'll be the best reference you ever had and consider it to be another degree. And so I packed my bags. I moved to New York. I started the next week and that was, the better part of two decades ago. So I, I came to the New York Stock Exchange at a time when it was going global. it wasn't your grandfather's stock exchange anymore. They had shifted from being this kind of public utility member owned, hierarchical organization to a public company to being for profit, publicly traded, multi asset class, multi geography. And they quickly learned in the first, maybe five minutes, if not the first 15 minutes that, exchanges are a business where economies of scale come in very quickly. You can put two exchanges together, remove one fixed cost base, and realize your cost and revenue synergies very quickly. So we started, or NYSE started off on this strategy to start acquiring other exchanges around the world. And what they learned in those first few minutes was that every country has a flag, an army, and a stock exchange. So there's a lot of national pride that goes along with it. And so I was brought in to work our way down the food chain. Instead of up the food chain, but down the food chain when it come to deal when it came to dealing with policy makers. So regulators, central bank governors, finance ministries, the diplomatic corps, because that's a lot of the folks I built relationships with during my time at the State Department. And we ended up acquiring the stock exchanges in Paris, Lisbon, Brussels, Amsterdam, and then percentages of different exchanges or portions of other exchanges in Brazil, Poland, Qatar, and around the world. So I got to do that for my first, few years, run international at the New York Stock Exchange. And then, and then was very fortunate, for the first time in two centuries, we were the target of an acquisition. rather than the acquirer. And we were bought or a bid was made for us, and it took a year's worth of kind of regulatory hurdles being cleared by a company called Intercontinental Exchange, 14 year old quasi startup out of Atlanta, Georgia, out of our now chairman's spare bedroom, and, made a bid for the New York Stock Exchange. We got acquired. And I want to say of the top 50 people at the New York Stock Exchange a year later, 48 of them were gone and I was still there and it either meant I was cheap, I knew something, or a combination of the two. But it ended up being an incredible opportunity for me because we completely transformed the culture. And the place and I, I was made head of corporate affairs shortly after that I ended up running our largest business, which about a half billion dollar plus business for us flagship is the person in front of me was, the head runner before 30 years older than me. So it really went from being a seniority based organization to complete meritocracy. And, and so I was fortunate enough to turn those many of the businesses which on an absolute basis, we're not in bad shape at all. We're very good businesses, but on a relative basis for how they had been historically and how they should be, we're not where they needed to be. and I was fortunate enough that I was given the opportunity to, turn those businesses around and buy all financial and operating metrics, they've never perform better. I add on all of our new business, our funds businesses, our iconic 11 wall street building is our chief operating officer for a number of years of the New York stock exchange and oversaw a whole host of financial and operational projects there. and today I am a Vice Chair of the New York stock exchange and I am also president of the NYC Institute, which is our public policy arm and really focused on making sure that policymakers in Washington and in capitals around the world understand the important role that public markets and public companies play in driving inclusive economic growth and helping ensure the long term competitiveness of U. S. capital markets. But, I've given you a full download of the past 20 years and about the past four minutes here. But I will say every moment I am not doing that, that job or in New York, you'll find me in Michigan, either in Milford or in, idyllic northern Michigan.

Cliff Duvernois: 00:11:07

So there's like 50 things we need to unpack. So we'll just take them one at a time. So I know you said that you had. You've always had this interest in like public policy and government and even politics. So where do you think that came from?

John Tuttle: 00:11:23

I think, I would like to think that one of the attributes I bring, to, to any relationship or business is that I have a high level of curiosity. It's also an attribute I look for when hiring people as well. And I think the ability to understand what a lot of people are focused on, understand that you can make an impact in a lot of different ways, maybe never as much as you can from the inside. So getting as close as you can to the inside, has been there. And so I just think it was, a high level of curiosity, my, my family has always been, I said, we weren't big donors or active politically, but been very interested in it and good citizens, I'd like to think. So I think being good stewards of the state of what we've been given and all that is, is what initially sparked that interest. And, it's, I'm the Forrest Gump of finance and of the policy world. I just found myself in the right place in the right time with the right people and kept on running.

Cliff Duvernois: 00:12:14

What I would also like to explore too is it seems like, and this is definitely a good thing, it seems like no matter where you go, somebody is reaching out to tap you for that next big thing. So when you're going into these places and you're working, talk to us a little bit about what it is that you're doing inside of there that has made you a a little bit of a hot commodity. Like I said, people are tapping you saying, Hey, we want you to come back to Washington. Hey, we want you to come out to the stock exchange. we're talking big players here, are reaching out. So talk to us a little bit about when you go into these environments and work, what is your thought process when you're going in

John Tuttle: 00:12:51

Yeah, sure. It's always putting the mission in front of your own, in front of your own interests or your own agenda, park your agenda at the door. We're all in here to achieve something together. And I think a lot of people say that, but to actually do it requires you to internalize that type of philosophy and it almost becomes subconscious or just natural for you. And that's what, when you find yourself surrounded by people who are putting the mission ahead of themselves or their own agenda, you can achieve great things. And those are the type of people you want to be around. So that's the type of behavior I've tried to model throughout my life and through my career. and fortunately for me, it's paid off. I've also learned along the way through that. And, I gave you a little bit of a glimpse into just how I got my foot in the door with some of these opportunities, but really you realize that sometimes, the best outcomes come when you find people who, I don't want to say have disrespect for, but have little obligation to the status quo. And when I talk to students, I talked to kids at Eastern Michigan all the time. My wife and I were fortunate enough to endow a scholarship there. We've, we funded a whole host of projects there, which again, I'm just a simple kid from Southeast Michigan, but I, I. What it allows me to do is spend time with this next generation of students and leaders, and I find it so inspiring and exciting because that's, it makes me bullish on Michigan, bullish on America when you meet people with this level of enthusiasm and intellect and all that. But they often ask, some questions about, Oh, how do how do you get to, how do you get a job like you have, or how did you get your foot in the door? It goes back to not having the respect for the status quo and, Or not being bound by it, I should say. And, it's, don't go through the HR process. Don't go online and apply. find your, find the person you have commonality with. I'm sure there's somebody in the organization that went to your same school, or is from your hometown, or something like that. Find them, and reach out to them. Yeah, focus on the relationship because you'd be surprised, more often than not, you never know when they're going to open that door and give you a helping hand. And it may not be on day one, but it may come years later down the road, but that's what life is all about. And that's how you should be thinking about life. And so yeah, so that's, I think one of those attributes that has kept me around is that, I'm willing not just to, to follow the well worn path, but to explore new ones.

Cliff Duvernois: 00:14:51

For our audience, we're going to take a quick break to thank our sponsors. And when we come back, we're going to ask some more questions for john. So we'll see you after the break. Are you enjoying these amazing stories? Michigan is full of people that are doing some pretty extraordinary things. If you want these amazing stories sent directly to your inbox, head over to total michigan.com. Enter your email address and get them today. What are you going to get? I'm glad you asked. First, you're gonna join our awesome Michigan community and it is quite awesome. Second, you will get an email that includes the top five interviews from the show sent directly to your inbox. This is going to include the powerful lessons that we've learned from these amazing people. Third, you're gonna get exclusive behind the scenes information about the show. There's a lot of things that are happening to grow this movement beyond the confines of just a radio show and a podcast. You'll get advanced notice of upcoming guests and early access to their interviews. You'll also get a link to our Facebook group. Now to get all these goodies, just head over to total michigan.com/join. Enter your email address and join our awesome community today. Hello everyone, and welcome back to Total Michigan. I am your host, Cliff DuVernois. Today we're talking with John Tuttle, Vice Chairman of the New York Stock Exchange, and the president of the N Y S E Institute. Got your full title in? Boom. there we go. Yes. So I'm actually learning a lot from this conversation. And I want to explore a little bit more here about about the New York Stock Exchange. what I would like to do is, I'd like to first take a step back here, because I know that a lot of people have a lot of perceptions about the New York Stock Exchange. What I would like to do is, from your standpoint there, what is maybe like one or two of the common myths that you see when it comes to the Stock Exchange?

John Tuttle: 00:16:43

Yeah, absolutely. more changes happen at the New York Stock Exchange in last 20 years than the preceding two centuries. We are not your grandfather's stock exchange anymore. We're very diverse and dynamic organization that's focused on technology. And probably touches, if not impacts the lives of every American every single day, one way or another. So we operate 12 exchanges, seven clearing houses around the world, the NYC and our broader organization. So that's everything from The New York Stock Exchange, where we trade shares or list and trade shares in 2400 companies. Those companies are from 46 countries around the world, but most importantly, those companies employ 43 million people directly. So it's an incredibly large platform that's there. We also operate the world's exchanges for soft commodities like coffee, sugar, cotton, cocoa, orange juice. And each and every day, we process, let's say, north of a trillion unique messages a day in a median response time of under 26 microseconds. So think about the throughput and the technology that's required to be able to provide that type of, that type of capacity and systems. And so we're an incredible organization. We're a for profit, publicly traded company. and, one of the things that, that for better or worse, I would flag is that I say there are four buildings that define America, the White House, the Capitol, the Supreme Court, and the New York Stock Exchange. And when the market's up, they show it on the news. When it's down, they show it on the news. When people want to protest things that have absolutely nothing to do with the New York Stock Exchange, they do it from in front of our building. But, but it's a reminder of the importance of the platform. And I mentioned, you heard me rattle off the stats that our list of companies employ 43 million people directly. But this is a place where people can save for their, save their money and invest their money for their children's education, for their own retirement, even their own financial freedom, and the ability to pursue their version of the American dream, however they define it. And one of the things that is very special about our country, and it's not popular to say is part of the reason why we enjoy the quality of life we do in this country and we're able to export it to other parts of the world is because of this system that we operate. And yes, it can always get better. Yes, it can always be more inclusive, but the ability for an entrepreneur or company to access capital, to grow and actually launch a business, to grow and expand it, to tap into new geographies, create new products, and ultimately create jobs along the way is unique in this world. But the other side of that, like I said, the ability for investors to be part of that journey and be part of that success is equally as special as well. And so that's why I wake up each and every day trying to find ways we can not only make sure we're continuing to evolve to meet the market demands, but we're opening our doors to the broadest number of constituents possible because when they're successful, that's when we're successful. And then that's good for not only states like Michigan, but countries like the United States and really the world.

Cliff Duvernois: 00:19:33

And you know you bring up a good point there when you're talking about parents being able to save for their kids education. Because i'm thinking about the proliferation of 401ks right union pension funds are all now linked and tied into the stock exchange.

John Tuttle: 00:19:48

Yeah. Absolutely. So like I said, it touches the life of every day Americans one way or another directly or indirectly each and every day. So whether it's their own savings for again, their children's education, their retirement, their financial freedom, or the pension fund, it for teachers, for firefighters, for, auto workers, those pension funds are invested in the market. So how the market performs the competitiveness of the U S capital markets really, touches their lives directly every day and can help for the long term competitiveness of the country. And one of the things I've been very focused on is making sure that our markets are as accessible to the largest number of people and the broadest set of constituents as possible. What I mean by that is, technology has made markets much more efficient, allowed a lot more accessibility, so you think about, 401ks and other products, savings products that are out there, but also think about just using technology to buy or sell a stock or an exchange traded fund. you used to have 20 years ago, you used to have to walk and drive to a broker's office, walk in there, pay them a $30 commission on either side of that trade and wait for a few days for it to be processed and for your money to go through. Now trading is, and frankly, access to information is instantaneous and essentially free. And so now that creates more opportunity for more people to participate. But where I've spent a lot of my time is creating more products. How do we make sure that playing field is as level as possible? how does somebody in Copper Harbor, Michigan or Detroit, Michigan, how do we make sure that they have the same access to the same opportunities with the same protections as somebody who may be at a, the hedge fund in Greenwich, Connecticut, or a big asset manager in Manhattan. let's make opportunity available for all folks. And also, let's think about, because you're poor doesn't mean you're dumb. Because you're rich doesn't mean you're smart. And so how can we give people who may not have the means at this moment access to these type of opportunities, they should be able to invest in things beyond just stocks and bonds. And if we can provide them access to more products with the protection and liquidity of the public markets, that's what we should be doing.

Cliff Duvernois: 00:21:51

Amen.

John Tuttle: 00:21:53

Preaching to the choir.

Cliff Duvernois: 00:21:54

Yeah, you are. I'm all for, I'm all about capitalism. I'm all about free market. So I'm absolutely enjoying this and I'm learning a lot. What I'd like to do is I want to circle back to something that you talked about before. And that is something I did not know, the stock exchange had been acquired by this group out of Georgian. You're talking about the New York Stock Exchange acquiring, other trading, globally around the world. This I did not know

John Tuttle: 00:22:20

Yeah.

Cliff Duvernois: 00:22:20

that this could actually happen. So talk to us a little bit about that.

John Tuttle: 00:22:23

Sure. So I mentioned on the onset of the program that we went out and acquired various exchanges around the world. And for the first time in our 200 plus year history in 2012, we became the target of an acquisition rather than the acquirer. And, an amazing company was founded out of Atlanta, Georgia with by probably one of America's least known but greatest entrepreneurs, a guy named Jeff Sprecher, who I have a very close relationship with. And, he was an entrepreneur on the West Coast who was looking for a way to, hedge or manage the price of energy. So he was building these power plants. He and a colleague were building these power plants on the west coast. And this is the time of the rolling blackouts. If you remember that, you were probably living in California at the time. And so part of that was just because of total mismanagement of the energy markets. And so we thought, how can we actually price electricity and allow electricity to trade? And he bought a fledgling technology company for a dollar out of Atlanta, Georgia. And locked himself in a spare bedroom and built this company, which today now is north of a 60 billion market cap company. And along the way, the, that exchange was roughly 12 to 14 years old when they acquired the New York Stock Exchange. And over the preceding decade or so, the New York Stock Exchange went from being this kind of large, member owned, not for profit, quasi public utility slash old boys club in a way and had to become You know, it went public, it changed, due to regulatory and market pressures, it became more efficient, more shareholder and customer focused, leaner. And on the other end of it, you had Intracontinental Exchange founded on this guy's spare bedroom. And it, as it grew and expanded, had become a little more structured and a little more process oriented. And so when the transaction happened, while both sides had moved towards the center on this continuum over the preceding decade, there was still a gap. And you can only have one culture in an organization unless you're Warren Buffett, Berkshire Hathaway, and you can really fully decentralized like that. Yeah, he's a special man. but unless you're Warren Buffett, you can only have one culture in your organization. And we brought on the ice culture, which really served me, I think, at a time in my life in my career. And so what is that? what's an example of what that looks like? It's the I don't care how long you've been here. It's a meritocracy, who's going to deliver who's focused on the mission who's put focused on putting the mission before their own agenda. And who's focused on again, disrupting the status quo saying, I don't have to wait my turn. Let's get this done. And, and the stat I give is that prior to our deal with ice, I think 20 percent of the company was within five layers of the CEO. think the employees with five layers. Two years after the acquisition, 99 percent of the employees are within five layers of the CEO. And that's not a euphemism for saying we've ripped out middle management. It's a, it's a way of saying we brought management very close to the front lines of the business. We became flat and that allowed us to evolve. And that's why, yeah, when I was fortunate enough to start taking up, senior leadership positions in the organization, I was able to implement changes. I was able to know what needed to be done and be able to deliver what were the best financial and operating results in the history, the then 220 plus year history of the New York stock exchange.

Cliff Duvernois: 00:25:22

That's awesome. And I could spend forever in a day just on that concept of leadership. I will say that of the companies that I've looked at, it always seems to me that the closer the C suite is to the worker, the better the company is versus the ones that are completely, removed. And I've never even been down to the manufacturing floor. I don't even know what we produce here.

John Tuttle: 00:25:41

exactly. And I think, what we've realized is, you want to operate a very lean and efficient organization. You don't want to cut to the bone or kind of starve the organization, but you want to make sure you're operating efficiently. Because that allows people to fill gaps, that allows them to find opportunities, and you have little, you don't have any room for internal politics because you're spending all your time, there's plenty of external things to work

Cliff Duvernois: 00:26:02

Yes. Yes. And what I would like to do, cause we're talking about, you mentioned something about internal politics and I would like to explore this a little bit because I know that there's this whole, there's this next generation that's coming up. And. I know probably somebody's going to be listening to this interview or watching this interview, and they're going to be like, you know what? I want to get in this game, right? What John is doing. I want to do it as well. So for those people that are coming up right now that are following in our footsteps, what would be like maybe a couple of key pieces of advice that you would give them?

John Tuttle: 00:26:33

It's a good question. I touched on some of them earlier. Number one is, you gotta be a bit of an HR ninja to find your way to the right spot, and you shouldn't just, bank on going through the process and expecting the result. And that's a lesson I've learned along the way, too, is that, I said I came from a family of kind of people who are very kind of law abiding and respectful of the rules and the process and all that. and I think those are good attributes, but at the same time, you'll realize that in real life, you, you can follow the rules, you can follow the recipe. You can do all the right things. You can expect the outcome to be what you want it to be, but it's not sometimes going to be that. And it's how you respond to that and position yourself, which is also going to help you your career. So the first thing is be a bit of an HR ninja. find that commonality, with somebody in the organization of where you want to be or who you want to be like, and, and reach out to them and build that connectivity. If somebody went to your school, somebody went to your hometown. Or, reach out and offer some insight, it's the, Hey, I'm looking to get on your calendar to have coffee. Great. Happy to do that. But if somebody actually comes with something that's going to make my day job a little bit easier, make me smarter for it, you're delivering value. And when you deliver value, there's always a home for you. so I think that's a big part of it. And also understand, again, you could follow the right playbook, but sometimes the results won't be what you want them to be, what you expected them to be, or frankly, in some cases, what they should be. And it really comes down to how you respond to that. you never want to be, doing anything out of protest. You want to be running towards something, not from something,

Cliff Duvernois: 00:27:57

Definitely. And one thing that I would also like to explore here is that, you've made some leapfrogs, throughout your life to get to where you are today, which is fantastic. Opportunity comes, take advantage of it. What do you think the future holds?

John Tuttle: 00:28:11

For me or in general? Oh, I don't know. Like I said, I'm just the Forrest Gump of finance. I kept on running and I don't plan to slow down anytime soon, but I've, I'm very fortunate. Like I said, I have two young children, a five year old son and a three year old daughter and a wonderful wife. And I used to spend probably more weekends than I should in the office, and it was because I wanted to, not 'cause I had to. But I've certainly reprioritized part of my life as well. And so spending a lot of time with my kids at these formative ages is where you'll probably find me when I'm not, when I'm not putting in my nine to five every week or every day. But, but, I gotta say, there's a, you watch the news and it's easy to get depressed on all the things that are going on in the state or outside of the state or around the world. But all I have to do is go visit my five year old's preschool and now he's going into kindergarten and that gets you excited about the future. They're a sharp kid, they're smart, they're excited. And as long as we can make sure we don't leave too big of problems for them to clean up, I'm excited about the future of not only this state, but this country as well.

Cliff Duvernois: 00:29:08

I absolutely love that. And the final question, John, is if somebody's listening to this, they want to maybe connect with you online or maybe they want to follow like the policies or what's going on? what would be the best way for them to do

John Tuttle: 00:29:20

Yeah, sure. The door is always open to any Michigander, anyone really, but any Michigander. And one of the things I love about being a Michigander is that all Michiganders look out for Michiganders. So if there's a, and that's why I love what you're doing as well. And, you're talking to a lot of extraordinary Michiganders. And I've just had the good fortune of being around extraordinary people in extraordinary places. And I don't think any of that's rubbed off on me, but, I, but I am here to help and be of assistance in any way to anybody from the greatest state in the union. So if anybody wants to reach out to me, you can always find me on like LinkedIn, John Tuttle on there, or you can send me an email and I'll, To friends of you, I'll give out my personal emails at john at nyse. com, john at nyse. com, So reach out anytime. please no spam, don't put me on any mailing lists, but happy to, happy to be a resource in any way possible. Because people were to me and, life's about paying it forward and making sure that people have the opportunities that they all deserve. And so to the extent I can be helpful in helping them achieve what they're looking to do, I'm here to do that.

Cliff Duvernois: 00:30:10

John, it's been an absolute treat having you on the show today. I appreciate it. Appreciate your time.

John Tuttle: 00:30:15

it's a pleasure and thanks for doing what you do each and every day and I'm an avid listener of the podcast. Now you've obviously had some, some friends of mine on here as well. But the more we can talk about the great things, great people are doing, the more they should be celebrated.

Cliff Duvernois: 00:30:28

Awesome. And thank you for that. Really do appreciate it. And, for our audience, you can always roll on over to TotalMichigan. com. Click on John's interview and, get all the information that he mentioned above. We'll see you next week when we talk to another ordinary Michigander doing some pretty extraordinary things. We'll see you then.